Tag Archive for: Schwachstellentests

OpenVAS began in 2005 when Nessus transitioned from open source to a proprietary license. Two companies, Intevation and DN Systems adopted the existing project and began evolving and maintaining it under a GPL v2.0 license. Since then, OpenVAS has evolved into Greenbone, the most widely-used and applauded open-source vulnerability scanner and vulnerability management solution in the world. We are proud to offer Greenbone as both a free Community Edition for developers and also as a range of enterprise products featuring our Greenbone Enterprise Feed to serve the public sector and private enterprises alike.

As the “old-dog” on the block, Greenbone is hip to the marketing games that cybersecurity vendors like to play. However, our own goals remain steadfast – to share the truth about our product and industry leading vulnerability test coverage. So, when we reviewed a recent 2024 network vulnerability scanner benchmark report published by a competitor, we were a little shocked to say the least.

As the most recognized open-source vulnerability scanner, it makes sense that Greenbone was included in the competition for top dog. However, while we are honored to be part of the test, some facts made us scratch our heads. You might say we have a “bone to pick” about the results. Let’s jump into the details.

What the 2024 Benchmark Results Found

The 2024 benchmark test conducted by Pentest-Tools ranked leading vulnerability scanners according to two factors: Detection Availability (the CVEs each scanner has detection tests for) and Detection Accuracy (how effective their detection tests are).

The benchmark pitted our free Community Edition of Greenbone and the Greenbone Community Feed against the enterprise products of other vendors: Qualys, Rapid7, Tenable, Nuclei, Nmap, and Pentest-Tools’ own product. The report ranked Greenbone 5th in Detection Availability and roughly tied for 4th place in Detection Accuracy. Not bad for going up against titans of the cybersecurity industry.

The only problem is, as mentioned above, Greenbone has an enterprise product too, and when the results are recalculated using our Greenbone Enterprise Feed, the findings are starkly different – Greenbone wins hands down.

Here is What we Found

 Bar chart from the 2024 benchmark for network vulnerability scanners: Greenbone Enterprise achieves the highest values with 78% availability and 61% accuracy

 

Our Enterprise Feed Detection Availability Leads the Pack

According to our own internal findings, which can be verified using our SecInfo Portal, the Greenbone Enterprise Feed has detection tests for 129 of the 164 CVEs included in the test. This means our Enterprise product’s Detection Availability is a staggering 70.5% higher than reported, placing us heads and tails above the rest.

To be clear, the Greenbone Enterprise Feed tests aren’t something we added on after the fact. Greenbone updates both our Community and Enterprise Feeds on a daily basis and we are often the first to release vulnerability tests when a CVE is published. A review of our vulnerability test coverage shows they have been available from day one.

Our Detection Accuracy was far Underrated

And another thing. Greenbone isn’t like those other scanners. The way Greenbone is designed gives it strong industry leading advantages. For example, our scanner can be controlled via API allowing users to develop their own custom tools and control all the features of Greenbone in any way they like. Secondly, our Quality of Detection (QoD) ranking doesn’t even exist on most other vulnerability scanners.

The report author made it clear they simply used the default configuration for each scanner. However, without applying Greenbone’s QoD filter properly, the benchmark test failed to fairly assess Greenbone’s true CVE detection rate. Applying these findings Greenbone again comes out ahead of the pack, detecting an estimated 112 out of the 164 CVEs.

Summary

While we were honored that our Greenbone Community Edition ranked 5th in Detection Availability and tied for 4th in Detection Accuracy in a recently published network vulnerability scanner benchmark, these results fail to consider the true power of the Greenbone Enterprise Feed. It stands to reason that our Enterprise product should be in the running. Afterall, the benchmark included enterprise offerings from other vendors.

When recalculated using the Enterprise Feed, Greenbone’s Detection Availability leaps to 129 of the 164 CVEs on the test, 70.5% above what was reported. Also, using the default settings fails to account for Greenbone’s Quality of Detection (QoD) feature. When adjusted for these oversights, Greenbone ranks at the forefront of the competition. As the most used open-source vulnerability scanner in the world, Greenbone continues to lead in vulnerability coverage, timely publication of vulnerability tests, and truly enterprise grade features such as a flexible API architecture, advanced filtering, and Quality of Detection scores.

Public-key cryptography underpins enterprise network security and thus, securing the confidentiality of private keys is one of the most critical IT security challenges for preventing unauthorized access and maintaining the confidentiality of data. While Quantum Safe Cryptography (QSC) has emerged as a top concern for the future, recent critical vulnerabilities like CVE-2024-3094 (CVSS 10) in XZ Utils and the newly disclosed CVE-2024-31497 (CVSS 8.8) in PuTTY are here and now – real and present dangers.

Luckily, the XZ Utils vulnerability was caught before widespread deployment into Linux stable release branches. However, by comparison, CVE-2024-31497 in PuTTY represents a much bigger threat than the aforementioned vulnerability in XZ Utils despite its lower CVSS score. Let’s examine the details to understand why and review Greenbone’s capabilities for detecting known cryptographic vulnerabilities.

A Primer On Public Key Authentication

Public-key infrastructure (PKI) is fundamental to a wide array of digital trust services such as Internet and enterprise LAN authentication, authorization, privacy, and application security. For public-key authentication both the client and server each need a pair of interconnected cryptographic keys: a private key, and a public key. The public keys are openly shared between the two connecting parties, while the private keys are used to digitally sign messages sent between them, and the associated public keys are used to decrypt those messages. This is how each party fundamentally verifies the other’s identity and how a single symmetric key is agreed upon for continuous encrypted communication with an optimal connection speed.

In the client-server model of communication, if the client’s private key is compromised, an attacker can potentially authenticate to any resources that honor it. If the server’s private key is compromised, an attacker can potentially spoof the server’s identity and conduct Adversary-in-the-Middle (AitM) attacks.

CVE-2024-31497 Affects All Versions of PuTTY

CVE-2024-31497 in the popular Windows SSH client PuTTY allows an attacker to recover a client’s NIST P-521 secret key by capturing and analyzing approximately 60 digital signatures due to biased ECDSA nonce generation. As of NIST SP-800-186 (2023) NIST ECDSA P-521 keys are still classified among those offering the highest cryptographic resilience and recommended for use in various applications, including SSL/TLS and Secure Shell (SSH) applications. So, a vulnerability in an application’s implementation of ECDSA P-521 authentication is a serious disservice to IT teams who have otherwise applied appropriately strong encryption standards.

In the case of CVE-2024-31497, the client’s digital signatures are subject to cryptanalysis attacks that can reveal the private key. While developing an exploit for CVE-2024-31497 is a highly skilled endeavor requiring expert cryptographers and computer engineers, a proof-of-concept (PoC) code has been released publically, indicating a high risk that CVE-2024-31497 may be actively exploited by even low skilled attackers in the near future.

Adversaries could capture a victim’s signatures by monitoring network traffic, but signatures may already be publicly available if PuTTY was used for signing commits of public GitHub repositories using NIST ECDSA P-521 keys. In other words, adversaries may be able to find enough information to compromise a private key from publicly accessible data, enabling supply-chain attacks on a victim’s software.

CVE-2024-31497 affects all versions of PuTTY after 0.68 (early 2017) before 0.81 and affects FileZilla before 3.67.0, WinSCP before 6.3.3, TortoiseGit before 2.15.0.1, and TortoiseSVN through 1.14.6, and potentially other products.

On the bright side, Greenbone is able to detect the various vulnerable versions of PuTTY with multiple Vulnerability Tests (VTs). Greenbone can identify Windows Registry Keys that indicate a vulnerable version of PuTTY is present on a scan target, and has additional tests for PuTTY for Linux [1][2][3], FileZilla [4][5], and versions of Citrix Hypervisor/XenServer [6] susceptible to CVE-2024-31497.

Greenbone Protects Against Known Encryption Flaws

Encryption flaws can be caused by weak cryptographic algorithms, misconfigurations, and flawed implementations of an otherwise strong encryption algorithm, such as the case of CVE-2024-31497. Greenbone includes over 6,500 separate Network Vulnerability Tests (NVTs) and Local Security Checks (LSCs) that can identify all types of cryptographic flaws. Some examples of cryptographic flaws that Greebone can detect include:

  • Application Specific Vulnerabilities: Greenbone can detect over 6500 OS and application specific encryption vulnerabilities for which CVEs have been published.
  • Lack Of Encryption: Unencrypted remote authentication or other data transfers, and even unencrypted local services pose a significant risk to sensitive data when attackers have gained an advantageous position such as the ability to monitor network traffic.
  • Support For Weak Encryption Algorithms: Weak encryption algorithms or cipher suites no longer provide strong assurances against cryptanalysis attacks. When they are in use, communications are at higher risk of data theft and an attacker may be able to forge communication to execute arbitrary commands on a victim’s system. Greenbone includes more than 1000 NVTs to detect remote services using weak encryption algorithms.
  • Non-Compliant TLS Settings And HTTPS Security Headers: Greenbone has NVTs to detect when HTTP Strict Transport Security (HSTS) is not configured and verify web-server TLS policy.

Summary

SSH public-key authentication is widely considered one of the most – if not the most secure remote access protocol, but two recent vulnerabilities have put this critical service in the spotlight. CVE-2024-3094, a trojan planted in XZ Utils found its way into some experimental Linux repositories before it’s discovery, and CVE-2024-31497 in PuTTY allows a cryptographic attack to extract a client’s private key if an attacker can obtain roughly 60 digital signatures.

Greenbone can detect emerging threats to encryption such as CVE-2024-31497 and includes over 6,500 other vulnerability tests to identify a range of encryption vulnerabilities.

Why is Greenbone not a security provider like any other? How did Greenbone come about and what impact does Greenbone’s long history have on the quality of its vulnerability scanners and the security of its customers? The new video “Demystify Greenbone” provides answers to these questions in an twelve-minute overview. It shows why experts need […]

“Support for early crisis detection” was the topic of a high-profile panel on the second day of this year’s PITS Congress. On stage: Greenbone CEO Jan-Oliver Wagner together with other experts from the Federal Criminal Police Office, the German Armed Forces, the Association of Municipal IT Service Providers VITAKO and the Federal Office for Information Security.

Panel discussion at the PITS Congress 2024 on the topic of early crisis detection with Greenbone CEO Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner and representatives from the BSI, Bundeswehr, BKA and VITAKO.

Once again this year, Behörden Spiegel organized its popular conference on Public IT Security (PITS). Hundreds of security experts gathered at the renowned Hotel Adlon in Berlin for two days of forums, presentations and an exhibition of IT security companies. In 2024, the motto of the event was “Security Performance Management” – and so it was only natural that Greenbone, as a leading provider of vulnerability management, was also invited (as in 2023), for example in the panel on early crisis detection, which Greenbone CEO Dr. Jan-Oliver Wagner opened with a keynote speech.

In his presentation, Jan-Oliver Wagner explained his view on strategic crisis detection, talking about the typical “earthquakes” and the two most important components: Knowing where vulnerabilities are, and providing technologies to address them.

Greenbone has built up this expertise over many years, also making it vailable to the public, in open source, always working together with important players on the market. For example, contacts with the German Federal Office for Information Security (BSI) were there right from the start: “The BSI already had the topic of vulnerability management on its radar when IT security was still limited to firewalls and antiviruses,” Wagner is praising the BSI, the German government’s central authority for IT security.

Today, the importance of two factors is clear: “Every organization must know how and where it is vulnerable, know its own response capabilities and has to keep working on improving them continuously. Cyber threats are like earthquakes. We can’t prevent them, we can only prepare for them and respond to them in the best possible way.”

“A crisis has often happened long before the news break”

According to Jan-Oliver Wagner’s definition, the constant cyber threat evolves into a veritable “crisis” when, for example, a threat “hits a society, economy or nation where many organizations have a lot of vulnerabilities and a low ability to react quickly. Speed is very important. You have to be faster than the attack happens.” The other participants on the panel also addressed this and used the term “getting ahead of the wave”.

The crisis is often already there long before it is mentioned in the news, individual organizations need to protect themselves and prepare themselves so that they can react to unknown situations on a daily basis. “A cyber nation supports organizations and the nation by providing the means to achieve this state,” says Jan-Oliver Wagner.

Differences between the military and local authorities

Major General Dr Michael Färber, Head of Planning and Digitalization, Cyber & Information Space Command, explained the Bundeswehr’s perspective: According to him, a crisis occurs when the measures and options for responding are no longer sufficient. “Then something develops into a crisis.”

From the perspective of small cities and similar local authorities, however, the picture is different, according to Katrin Giebel, Head of VITAKO, the Federal Association of Municipal IT Service Providers. “80 percent of administrative services take place at the municipal level. Riots would already occur when the vehicle registration is not available.” Cities and municipalities keep being hit hard by cyber attacks, and crises start much earlier here: “For us, threats are almost the same as a crisis.”

Massive negligence in organizations is frightening, says BSI

The BSI, on the other hand, defines a “crisis” as when an individual organization is unable or no longer able to solve a problem on its own. Dr Dirk Häger, Head of the Operational Cyber Security Department at the BSI: “As soon as two departments are affected, the crisis team convenes. For us, a crisis exists as soon as we cannot solve a problem with the standard organization.” This is giving a crucial role to those employees who decide whether to call together a meeting or not. “You just reach a point where you agree: now we need the crisis team.”

Something that Häger finds very frightening, however, is how long successful attacks continue to take place after crises have actually already been resolved, for example in view of the events surrounding the Log4j vulnerability. “We put a lot of effort into this, especially at the beginning. The Log4j crisis was over, but many organizations were still vulnerable and had inadequate response capabilities. But nobody investigates it anymore,” complains the head of department from the BSI.

How to increase the speed of response?

Asked by moderator Dr. Eva-Charlotte Proll, editor-in-chief and publisher at Behörden Spiegel, what would help in view of these insights, he describes the typical procedure and decision-making process in the current, exemplary checkpoint incident: “Whether something is a crisis or not is expert knowledge. In this case, it was a flaw that was initiated and exploited by state actors.” Action was needed at the latest when the checkpoint backdoor was beginning to be exploited by other (non-state) attackers. Knowledge of this specific threat situation is also of key importance for those affected.

Also Jan Oliver Wagner once again emphasized the importance of the knowledge factor. Often the threat situation is not being discussed appropriately. At the beginning of 2024, for example, an important US authority (NIST) reduced the amount of information in its vulnerability database – a critical situation for every vulnerability management provider and their customers. Furthermore, the fact that NIST is still not defined as a critical infrastructure shows that action is needed.

The information provided by NIST is central to the National Cyber Defense Center’s ability to create a situational picture as well, agrees Färber. This also applies to cooperation with the industry: several large companies “boast that they can deliver exploit lists to their customers within five minutes. We can improve on that, too.”

Carsten Meywirth, Head of Department at the BKA, emphasized the differences between state and criminal attacks, also using the example of the supply chain attack on Solarwinds. Criminal attackers often have little interest in causing a crisis because too much media attention might jeopardize their potential financial returns. And security authorities need to stay ahead of the wave – which requires intelligence and the potential to disrupt the attackers’ infrastructure.

BKA: International cooperation

According to Major General Färber, Germany is always among the top 4 countries in terms of attacks. The USA is always in first place, but states like Germany end up in the attackers’ dragnets so massively simply because of their economy’s size. This is what makes outstanding international cooperation in investigating and hunting down perpetrators so important. “Especially the cooperation of Germany, the USA and the Netherlands is indeed very successful, but the data sprints with the Five Eyes countries (USA, UK, Australia, Canada and New Zealand) are also of fundamental importance, because that is where intelligence findings come to the table, are being shared and compared. “Successful identification of perpetrators is usually impossible without such alliances,” says Michael Färber. But Germany is well positioned with its relevant organizations: “We have significantly greater redundancy than others, and that is a major asset in this fight.” In the exemplary “Operation Endgame“, a cooperation between the security authorities and the private sector launched by the FBI, the full power of these structures is now becoming apparent. “We must and will continue to expand this.”

“We need an emergency number for local authorities in IT crises”

Getting ahead of the situation like this is still a dream of the future for the municipalities. They are heavily reliant on inter-federal support and a culture of cooperation in general. An up-to-date picture of the situation is “absolutely important” for them, Katrin Giebel from VITAKO reports. As a representative of the municipal IT service providers, she is very familiar with many critical situations and the needs of the municipalities – from staff shortages to a lack of expertise or an emergency number for IT crises that is still missing today. Such a hotline would not only be helpful, but it would also correspond to the definition from Wagner’s introductory presentation: “A cyber nation protects itself by helping companies to protect themselves.”

BSI: prevention is the most important thing

Even if the BSI does not see itself in a position to fulfil such a requirement on its own, this decentralized way of thinking has always been internalized. But whether the BSI should be developed into a central office in this sense is something that needs to be discussed first, explains Dirk Häger from the BSI. “But prevention is much more important. Anyone who puts an unsecured system online today will quickly be hacked. The threat is there. We must be able to fend it off. And that is exactly what prevention is.”

Wagner adds that information is key to this. And distributing information is definitely a task for the state, which is where he sees the existing organizations in the perfect role.

Sponsor wall of the PITS Congress 2024 with logos of leading IT security companies such as Greenbone, Cisco, HP and other partners from government and industry.

Two security vulnerabilities in Sharepoint – both from last year – are currently causing trouble for Sharepoint administrators. Because attackers are increasingly exploiting a combination of the two vulnerabilities, the Cybersecurity Infrastructure Security Agency CISA is now also issuing a warning. Affected customers of the Greenbone Enterprise Feed have been warned since June 2023.

Tracking-News: Critical Vunerability in MS Sharepoint

Remote Privilege Execution

The two vulnerabilities CVE-2023-29357 and CVE-2023-24955 together allow attackers to remotely gain administrator rights in a company’s SharePoint server. Details of the attack were published back in September 2023 at the Pwn2Own conference in Vancouver 2023 and can be found on the Singapore Starlabs blog, for example.

Massive attacks have now led to CISA recently issuing a warning about these vulnerabilities and including CVE-2023-29357 in its catalog of known exploited vulnerabilities. However, Greenbone has already had authenticated version checks for both CVEs since around June 2023 and an active check for CVE-2023-29357 since October 2023. Customers of the enterprise products have been receiving these CVEs as a threat for several months – in authenticated and unauthenticated scan mode.

Microsoft advises its customers on its website to update to the SharePoint Server 2019 version of June 13, 2023, (KB5002402), which fixes five critical vulnerabilities, including the first CVE mentioned by CISA. Furthermore, all administrators should install the antivirus software AMSI and activate Microsoft Defender in the SharePoint server. Otherwise, attackers could bypass authentication with fake authentication tokens and gain administrator rights.

Recognising and detecting vulnerabilities in the company at an early stage is important, as the many reports of damaging vulnerabilities show. Greenbone products can take on a lot of work here and ensure security – as a hardware- or as a virtual appliance. The Greenbone Enterprise Feed, which feeds all Greenbone security products, receives daily updates and therefore covers a high percentage of risks.

With the help of compliance policies, a company can check whether all components integrated in the system meet the required specifications. The increasing digitalization and the associated growth of new technologies create opportunities, but also risks. For this reason, the demands on compliance are increasing as well. With GOS 20.08, all compliance policies were made available via the Greenbone Security Feed and four new compliance policies were added: TLS-Map, BSI TR-03116: Part 4, Huawei Datacom Product Security Configuration Audit Guide and Windows 10 Security Hardening.

Compliance policies for different industries

What is a compliance policy anyway?

In addition to legal requirements, companies and public authorities often have their own guidelines that must be met for the secure configuration of a system. The aim is to ensure the information security of the company or authority by guaranteeing the confidentiality, integrity, availability and authenticity of information.

All specifications and guidelines that are necessary for this are summarized in one document to form a policy.

Based on the individual criteria of the guidelines, Greenbone develops vulnerability tests – roughly speaking: one criterion results in one vulnerability test. Greenbone combines these tests into a scan configuration.

Such scan configurations, which reflect policies of companies or authorities, are called Compliance Policies.


Example: a company releases a security policy with the following requirements:

  • Version 2 of software A is installed on the target system
  • SSH is activated on the target system
  • Software B is not installed on the target system

Greenbone develops a vulnerability test for each of the requirements, which checks whether the respective condition is fulfilled.

The three tests are then combined into a compliance policy that a user of the Greenbone solutions can choose when performing a vulnerability test. During the scan, it is checked whether the conditions mentioned above are met on the target system.


New: distribution of compliance policies via the Greenbone Security Feed

Starting with GOS 20.08, all standard scan configurations, reports formats, port lists, and compliance policies of Greenbone are distributed via the Greenbone Security Feed.

Among other things, this allows the publication and distribution of scan configurations for current, hot vulnerability tests. In the past, these were published as XML files for manual download on the Greenbone download website and had to be imported by the users themselves – which was very tedious and left room for mistakes, making a quick application hardly possible.

But this is not the only advantage. It also makes troubleshooting much easier and faster for the customer: objects can be updated and, if necessary, fixed for all setups with a single feed update.

In addition to this innovation, the Greenbone Security Feed has been extended by some important compliance policies.

More Compliance Policies in the Greenbone Security Feed

Four new compliance policies were added to the Greenbone Security Feed in the 4th quarter 2020:

  • TLS-Map
  • BSI TR-03116: Part 4
  • Huawei Datacom Product Security Configuration Audit Guide
  • Windows 10 Security Hardening

About the Special Scan Configuration TLS-Map

Note: TLS-Map is a scan configuration for special scans that are different from vulnerability scans. For reasons of simplicity, this special scan configuration is listed in this article along with the compliance policies.

The special scan configuration TLS-Map is helpful wherever secure communication over the Internet is required. TLS – short for Transport Layer Security – is a protocol for the secure transmission of data on the Internet. It is the successor of SSL – Secure Sockets Layer – which is why both protocols are still often used synonymously today. However, all SSL versions and TLS versions prior to version 1.2 have been outdated since 2020 at the latest and are therefore insecure.

The largest area of application for TLS is data transfer via the World Wide Web (WWW), for example between a web browser as the client and a server such as www.greenbone.net. Other areas of application are in e-mail traffic and in the transfer of files via File Transport Protocol (FTP).

The special scan configuration TLS-Map checks whether the required TLS version is available on the target system and whether the required encryption algorithms – so-called ciphers – are offered.

About the Compliance Policy BSI TR-03116: Part 4

The Technical Guideline BSI TR-03116 Cryptographic Requirements for Federal Projects from the Federal Office for Information Security (BSI) is used for Federal Government projects. This means that if a federal project should be implemented, this guideline must be fulfilled. It consists of 5 parts in total:

  • Part 1: Telematic infrastructure
  • Part 2: Sovereign identification documents
  • Part 3: Intelligent measuring systems
  • Part 4: Communications procedures in applications
  • Part 5: Applications of the Secure Element API

The compliance policy, which Greenbone Network has developed accordingly, checks whether the contents of the fourth part of the policy are fulfilled. This part contains requirements for communication procedures.

The compliance policy BSI TR-03116: Part 4 in the Greenbone Security Feed tests the three main requirements – minimum TLS version as well as necessary and not legitimate ciphers – of the technical guideline.

About the Compliance Policy Huawei Datacom Product Security Configuration Audit Guide

Compliance policies for Huawei solutions have been part of the Greenbone Security Feed for quite some time.

Greenbone had already developed compliance policies for the following two solutions:

  • EulerOS: Linux operating system, based on CentOS
    Related compliance Policy: EulerOS Linux Security Configuration
  • GaussDB: database management system (DBMS)
    Related compliance policy: GaussDB 100 V300R001C00 Security Hardening Guide

With a compliance policy for Huawei Datacom, a product category that also includes routers and switches with their own operating system, a third compliance policy for solutions developed by Huawei is added now.

For all three products – Huawei Datacom, EulerOS and GaussDB – there are security configurations that were specified by Huawei. Based on these configurations, Greenbone has developed compliance policies which check the compliance with those security configurations. The different compliance policies are always applied if the corresponding solution is available on the target system.

For the Huawei Datacom operating system, Huawei distributes the Huawei Datacom Product Security Configuration Audit Guide. The associated, newly developed compliance policy tests, for example, whether the correct versions of SSH and SNMP are available on the target system.

About the Compliance Policy Windows 10 Security Hardening

The compliance policy Windows 10 Security Hardening includes vulnerability tests to evaluate the hardening of Windows 10 according to industry standards.

Among other things, the compliance policy checks different password specifications such as age, length and complexity of the password, specifications for the assignments of user rights, and requirements for different system devices.

Even faster integration of compliance policies with GOS 20.08

As digitalization continues, compliance requirements are growing in companies of all sizes and in all industries.

Through the direct integration of compliance policies via the Greenbone Security Feed and the inclusion of new compliance policies, the testing of target systems is even more efficient, easier and quicker, thus increasing the protection of the IT infrastructure without the need for special compliance know-how. Of course, we continue to work on new compliance policies on an ongoing basis. So be curious!